This is way to much or a nerf to it. It has a very slow swing speed, unlike other melee weapons you have to wait a fairly long time after pulling it out to use it too, it is two handed and takes up a rather large amount of backpack space when compared to other melee weapons, it's not bad by any means but big damage number does not mean it's overpowered either.

This is way to much or a nerf to it. It has a very slow swing speed, unlike other melee weapons you have to wait a fairly long time after pulling it out to use it too, it is two handed and takes up a rather large amount of backpack space when compared to other melee weapons, it's not bad by any means but big damage number does not mean it's overpowered either.

Its only been brought in line with other existing weapons, only other weaponry to deal 30 blunt is the syndicate microwave which can't be stored, and a mechweapon, not to mention the 10 shock damage on top of that also, oh and all the structural damage meaning it will still decimates borgs (synths maybe too? unsure)

Otherwise what do you suggest it be changed to? Considering all the factors.

Would like to do some proper testing of this, as it does not seem too overpowered to me given it has some rather significant downsides. At the moment I am not sure it needs any adjustment outside of adding a contra rating to it. The swing speed is really incredibly slow on it, and also it has a rather significant wind up time when equipped before you can actually make an attack with it on top of such, so though it has a rather high damage per swing I am not sure the actual dps on it would be notably higher then other melee weapons, though I would like this to be properly tested before any decision is made.

Would like to do some proper testing of this, as it does not seem too overpowered to me given it has some rather significant downsides. At the moment I am not sure it needs any adjustment outside of adding a contra rating to it. The swing speed is really incredibly slow on it, and also it has a rather significant wind up time when equipped before you can actually make an attack with it on top of such, so though it has a rather high damage per swing I am not sure the actual dps on it would be notably higher then other melee weapons, though I would like this to be properly tested before any decision is made.

The issues that were found by this, were that regardless of these downsides, it became ~75 damage when wielded. And multiplied its damage as stun by 1.5. While wielded, it would instantly stun even a xeno Queen. And in three hits, would gib said Queen. Not crit. Not kill. Gib. This damage, along with the insane stun was too much. And this isn’t even mentioning the buffs to its damage that it could get by being an Oni, and taking other traits. Which people were actively taking specifically for this weapon. It still keeps its stamina multiplier, but as re-silvered mentioned, its damage is more in line with other melee while still being comparatively powerful.

I have a few things to add! First off, the weapon does need a nerf. Though, to echo @TECKDragon's sentiment, I think this would nerf the weapon way too far. The Tintreach has a high per attack damage, but a very low attack speed of 0.4. I am not aware of any other weapons with a swing speed this low. Currently in terms of DPS, the Tintreach is on par with the Energy sword, Energy Katana, Energy Halberd, and Robust toolbox in terms of DPS, which seems a bit too high compared to other weapons, given most of those are C3 weapons meant for antags or sec.

The current levels proposed in this PR would reduce the DPS to 16, which in my opinion would not make sense for a T3 research weapon, especially given it must be wielded. This is equivalent to a normal baseball bat in terms of DPS

I would propose reducing the weapons blunt damage to 50, and increasing the Shock to 15. This prevents issues with insta-crit, while leveling the DPS to 26, around the level of the Captains Sabre and reinforced baseball bat. I would also suggest adding a small (10-15%) movement speed debuff while wielding the weapon.

Yes this would mean it still has high blunt damage, but it is a very large, heavy hammer, and has an attack speed to match.

Currently it takes 7 hits to gib someone, this would also bump that to 8, taking 20 seconds to gib someone.
I tested on Xeno Queens, and it takes 7 hits to gib, just like a player, though Xeno's DO gib before they die if given enough blunt damage, that is not an issue with the Tintreach per say, but with Xeno's themselves. Not sure how someone managed to gib a queen in 3 hits, but I suspect it might be a bug with Rodentia trait effects being passed on via ghost roles.

I put together a chart of notable weapons, and their respective DPS.

If the the blunt damage being at 50 is still too high, I would suggest shifting some of it to normal heat damage, or perhaps piercing.

Part of the problem, which leads to the 3-hit gibs isn’t rodentia traits. It’s Oni traits. Which add a base 20% damage to the already high damage. Plus Big, which adds flat damage. And then all that damage is being multiplied as stun. You are guaranteed to one-tap stamcrit anything, by virtue of just playing an Oni. 65+13 (20% of the base) x 1.5 ends up with a total stamina damage of 117. By comparison, a 4-gauge beanbag deals 120 stun and 20 blunt, and requires you to actually aim well enough to land the shot. Even lowering to just 50, still hits for 90 stamina. A low swing speed doesn’t matter much when your opponent can’t fight back. It matters even less when you’re dealing upwards of 90 damage per swing.

Even lowering it to 50 blunt still hits for 90 stun with an Oni. And the speed boot meta would simply just ignore the proposed slowdown from the hammer. Even with the proposed dps change, an Oni will still hit for 72 damage per swing. And two-hit stun, the first basically doing so much in stamina damage that the second hit is a guarantee anyway.

current total, just using traits without abusing ones that are bugged and shouldn’t be applying, you can get to 92.4 per swing. With said bugged trait, you can push the damage over 100. And the reason for the hyperfocus on Oni numbers, is because this is what players are doing when using this weapon. Enough that it needed to be adjusted so soon after being added.

Part of the problem, which leads to the 3-hit gibs isn’t rodentia traits. It’s Oni traits. . .

I tested with Oni on my numbers, and no, the gibbing is not related to Oni, the respective creatures gib at 400 blunt, as expected.

Even lowering it to 50 blunt still hits for 90 stun with an Oni. And the speed boot meta would simply just ignore the proposed slowdown from the hammer. Even with the proposed dps change, an Oni will still hit for 72 damage per swing. And two-hit stun, the first basically doing so much in stamina damage that the second hit is a guarantee anyway.

You are right, this will two hit stun, however, I am unaware of a situation where you would not already be critical with 144 damage, given that stamina damage from blunt is calculated from the post armor total. So if you have say a blood red, it's three hits to stun. (Minimum 5 seconds of melee engagement, assuming you do not miss a hit, and already have the weapon wielded) I verified this in a dev environment.

Also I was under the impression speed boots were going to be nerfed soon? So I feel the speed boots point is a bit moot, since they make all melee inherently a lot stronger.

current total, just using traits without abusing ones that are bugged and shouldn’t be applying, you can get to 92.4 per swing. With said bugged trait, you can push the damage over 100. And the reason for the hyperfocus on Oni numbers, is because this is what players are doing when using this weapon. Enough that it needed to be adjusted so soon after being added.

I agree 92.4 is way too high, my proposed re-balance would put it at 75 for Oni. I also wonder, is this not intended behavior for Oni? You take massive debuffs with not being able to use a lot of ranged weapons, no?

Speed boots are planned to be nerfed yes, but we haven’t yet begun discussions on how. Though, the issue with post-resistance stun damage is fair, but it also doesn’t address the fact that regardless of whether it is resisted, the combination of traits, damage and stun is absurd for how easily it is to do so. Every other weapon and projectile that uses it, loses on the majority of its lethal damage to do the stun, if not losing all of it. Having a weapon dealing 90-110 stun and 90 lethal damage is insane.

Besides, the total damage here isnt that far off, at 40. The shock remains untouched.

Speed boots are planned to be nerfed yes, but we haven’t yet begun discussions on how. Though, the issue with post-resistance stun damage is fair, but it also doesn’t address the fact that regardless of whether it is resisted, the combination of traits, damage and stun is absurd for how easily it is to do so. Every other weapon and projectile that uses it, loses on the majority of its lethal damage to do the stun, if not losing all of it. Having a weapon dealing 90-110 stun and 90 lethal damage is insane.

I would argue the fact the stun damage being reduced proportionally by armor is relevant, given a lot of the other sources of stun damage, are sources of raw stun damage, which do NOT get reduced by armor (Beanbags, disablers, etc). I also agree that 90-110 damage is too much! Thats why my proposed tweaks reduced the DPS to be lower than lots of other melee weapons, and put it in line with the reinforced baseball bat/caps sabre. The initially proposed changes would put it in line with a normal baseball bat, which seems a bit excessive for a weapon that is a lot larger in your bag, no? I know the raw numbers seem crazy, but it takes 2.5 seconds to recharge a swing, and you are rather vulnerable during that window, given if you unwield it, it has a swing cooldown that is triggered upon wield.

Speed boots are planned to be nerfed yes, but we haven’t yet begun discussions on how. Though, the issue with post-resistance stun damage is fair, but it also doesn’t address the fact that regardless of whether it is resisted, the combination of traits, damage and stun is absurd for how easily it is to do so. Every other weapon and projectile that uses it, loses on the majority of its lethal damage to do the stun, if not losing all of it. Having a weapon dealing 90-110 stun and 90 lethal damage is insane.

I would argue the fact the stun damage being reduced proportionally by armor is relevant, given a lot of the other sources of stun damage, are sources of raw stun damage, which do NOT get reduced by armor (Beanbags, disablers, etc). I also agree that 90-110 damage is too much! Thats why my proposed tweaks reduced the DPS to be lower than lots of other melee weapons, and put it in line with the reinforced baseball bat/caps sabre. The initially proposed changes would put it in line with a normal baseball bat, which seems a bit excessive for a weapon that is a lot larger in your bag, no? I know the raw numbers seem crazy, but it takes 2.5 seconds to recharge a swing, and you are rather vulnerable during that window, given if you unwield it, it has a swing cooldown that is triggered upon wield.

I would argue that, in the hands of a Big oni, a melee weapon that still deals a total of 74 raw damage and stun (or 72 and 72.2) is still ridiculous. Because these aren’t just being used for pvp. Theyre being used to essentially trivialize even the most difficult expeditions. It wouldn’t be so bad if there was little to no stun at that rate. The fact that it’s a multiplier only exaggerates the already high numbers. Because, again, slow attack rates mean nothing if your opponent can’t fight back at all, by the time you take another swing.

Because, again, slow attack rates mean nothing if your opponent can’t fight back at all, by the time you take another swing.

I agree! the values I proposed should prevent instant staminacrits from occurring, or really any staminacrit occuring before the recipient of the damage reaches the critical state if the tintreach is the only weapon used, barring healing between swings.

Because, again, slow attack rates mean nothing if your opponent can’t fight back at all, by the time you take another swing.

I agree! the values I proposed should prevent instant staminacrits from occurring, or really any staminacrit occuring before the recipient of the damage reaches the critical state if the tintreach is the only weapon used, barring healing between swings.

Honestly, the stun should just go. Because whether it’s 30 blunt or 50, any amount with the current stun multiplier is just going to effectively double any degree of slowdown the opponent takes, since they’re taking it from both health loss and stamina loss.